Julie Landsman

Andrew Hitz: Hello, and welcome to the latest episode of The Brass Junkies. I am your host, Andrew Hitz, and I have just watched my co-host, Lance LaDuke, is still trying to untangle his headphone cords from his chair, and he actually almost fell out of his chair, which I was rooting for, even though at this age it might require hip replacement surgery. Lance, how are you? Lance LaDuke: I feel all tied up in knots. Andrew Hitz: It Lance LaDuke: was pretty funny. I was, uh, enjoying it as well. Andrew Hitz: Lance, Lance gets frustrated to the point where he curses about stupid things that aren't a big deal, like, once or twice a year, uh, just like me. Um, uh- Mm-hmm ... did I say year? Yeah, for me it's a little more frequent than that. But, um, but yeah, this was one of those times. Mm-hmm. That was very f- I enjoyed that a lot 'cause I'm a bad person. Lance LaDuke: I'm winded now. Andrew Hitz: So this conversation that we just had with Julie Landsman is amazing. Lance LaDuke: It was one of my favorites. Andrew Hitz: What a remarkable human. Lance LaDuke: Instant. Instant favorite of mine. I just, uh- Yeah, she lived... It's one of those, you know, you meet your heroes kind of thing, and, and she just lived up to everything I- Yes ... suspected about her. Andrew Hitz: Yes. And, uh, yeah, and it started with her sharing some stories about Sam, which I had forgotten that they had worked together, which was amazing, uh, to hear that. And, like, early Sammy too, like, yeah, really early. Like, yeah, early early. Lance LaDuke: In a quintet with her and Andrew Hitz: him- Lance LaDuke: And Gould ... and Gould. And a trio with her and Gould and Dave Taylor. Like, what? Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Lance LaDuke: I can't process that. Andrew Hitz: No, no. Not, not so much. So, um, but yeah, her, just her approach to life, her approach to teaching, her approach to playing, um, the hostile work environment that she entered initially at The Met and how she- Oh, yeah navigated that, uh, just, just remarkable. Like, absolutely remar- This was one of those that flew by, like flew by. I'm always glad when we kinda give them an out time so that I can keep my eye on the clock, because someone like her, I could, I could just, "You wanna talk again tomorrow?" So, um, yeah, so much to unpack. Lance LaDuke: That's how you do it. Like, just, like, do what she has done and you're good. Yep. Just as a player, as a person, as a teacher, as a, a mentor, as a friend, as a... Like, oh, okay, that's how you're supposed to do this. Yeah. Like, yeah. Andrew Hitz: Uh, also, the, the bonus episode that we recorded with her, which you can find out more at patreon.com/thebrassjunkies. We have bonus episodes with, like, countless brass players, including a number of her colleagues, like Jim Pandolfi and Mark Gould, and, uh, yeah, uh, and Sam Pilafian. Um, yeah, really, it was also really, really great. So, um, and some of it was, uh, some of the bonus episode was heartfelt, and then others there was, uh, she said, "I'll save the juicy stu- the juicy stories," she said with a, with a twinkle in her eye for that. So, um, yeah, some good Gould stories. So all Gould stories are good, but then there's some really good ones, and she told one that was, uh, that was awesome. So- Mm-hmm ... anyway, this is really, really special. Um, thank you to everybody who supports the show. Thank you to everybody who's gone to Apple Podcasts or wherever you get podcasts and left a rating and a review. That's really helpful way for other people to find, um, the show. And also, last part of this announcements is the Brass Junkies Academy summer workshop. It is only $109 to, uh, for f- clinics with 15 of the world's best brass players, including former Julie Landsman student, uh, principal horn of the Philadelphia Orchestra, Jennifer Montone. We got Joe Alessi, we got Carol Jantsch, we got Pat Sheridan. The list just goes on and on and on. It's all 109 bucks, and the whole thing is available all summer long. Uh, you can watch it as many times as you would like until September 1st. So you can go to brassjunkies.academy or brassjunkiesacademy.com, and, uh, you can register today. I think without further ado, let us get to the conversation that we had with the amazing, incredible, and remarkable Julie Landsman And today we are joined by one of, I would argue, the most important brass players of the last century, which is a lot of pressure here. So you need to be interesting and engaging- Oh, wow ... and entertaining, and- I try Lance LaDuke: to be like that every time Andrew Hitz: I wasn't talking about you, Lance. Lance LaDuke: Oh. Andrew Hitz: I was talking about Julie Landsman. Julie, how are you? Julie Landsman: I'm doing really well, all things considered. Thank you for asking. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. You're, you have been... You know, this is funny. We've been doing this for a long time now, and you were on our shortest list possible when we first started this, but neither Lance nor I know you personally. Although now that we've been on Zoom for five minutes, I feel we're very close. That's right. But we just, we just hadn't reached out to you yet. It's just, like, one of those things, and then all of a sudden I said, "Wait a minute," because everyone's stuck in their houses, and busy people like you, I was like, "I bet she might be free," and you said yes, and we are so honored for you to be here. Julie Landsman: Thank you for asking, and I actually feel like I know you because of the Sam Pilafian posts on Facebook. Oh. Sam was a colleague and a dear friend, so I really was moved by your responses and postings. Thank you for those. Andrew Hitz: Oh, no, the, uh... Well, thank you for saying so. Well, actually, let's just, uh, let's start there. What, how did you know Sam, other than the fact that you were two colossal figures in the brass world? Julie Landsman: We freelanced in New York together, and we played in a crazy brass quintet. One of the members, besides Sam and I, was Mark Gould. Need I say more? Lance LaDuke: Holy moly. Andrew Hitz: You seem normal for being in a quintet with Gould and Sam at the same time. Julie Landsman: Well, I've calmed down, but we were, we were pretty wild all together. Andrew Hitz: Well, who else was in that quintet? Julie Landsman: I'm- I've blocked it out. Okay. I'm sorry to say. It's like- Andrew Hitz: With the help of a therapist. Julie Landsman: Distant memory. Right. There was another point in time where Gould and I were in a trio with Dave Taylor, and that was interesting. Andrew Hitz: Oh, jeez. Julie Landsman: But I cannot recall who else was in this particular quintet. Andrew Hitz: Wow. So you, so you knew Sammy from Miami in his New York days. Julie Landsman: Yes, a long time ago. We played in the ballets together at the Metropolitan Opera. There were many incoming ballets, and we got to work together, and he blew my mind. Such a beautiful player and a dynamic human being. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. That's a, that's a great way to put it. There you go. So, uh, so yeah, you've, you've played with the Met a few times, haven't you? Julie Landsman: Yeah, just a few. Uh-huh. Andrew Hitz: Principal horn for, uh, for a quarter century. Uh, yeah, that was, uh, yeah, it was quite, quite a run you had there. Um, talk to us about when you first joined the Met. What was that like? Julie Landsman: Well, that was 1985. Mm-hmm. And please excuse my dog barking. She wants me at all times. Got it. And she's just letting us know she's not happy without me at the moment. Lance LaDuke: Uh- We had one guest that had, I'm, I'm not lying, there were sheep in the background. It was, like, in a flock, so this is nothing. That was- Don't, don't worry ... that Andrew Hitz: was That was An- I almost- ... Andy Balio That's right He was at the, uh- Oh ... the Sheep and Wool Festival, and which we didn't quite understand. And anyway, I mean, we interviewed him- For real ... and there's literally sheep throughout the... He'll be talking about, I mean, like- ... like meditation, like something really deep, and then you just hear this baa. And then it's like, it's over the top. So your Julie Landsman: dog is nothing. I know Andrew Balio from yoga and meditation before he was Andrew Balio. Andrew Hitz: Oh. Whoa. Before he was, like, In Lights Andrew Balio. Julie Landsman: That's- Before. I mean, at that point he had a Sanskrit name. I don't know if you know about this. Andrew Hitz: No. Oh, Julie Landsman: I don't think so. Anil. A-N-I-L. We met at a yoga retreat. I was practicing, and he showed up. He said, "Who are you and what are you doing?" I said, "Well, I'm doing my asanas, but I'm also practicing so I don't get out of shape. Who are you?" "Oh, I'm taking a year off of..." I think he was still at NEC. Andrew Hitz: Right. Julie Landsman: Wow. He was taking off time to get himself together. Anyway. Andrew Hitz: Right. Yeah. Yeah, he did mention the, the, the full year off. I do remember that, and about how he wasn't sure if he was coming back, and he obviously came back. So- Julie Landsman: That's when we met Wow. I'm curious if hitting pause would be good, and I'll go get my dog and she can join us, 'cause this is annoying. Andrew Hitz: Absolutely. Go for it. Julie Landsman: Hit pause. Andrew Hitz: Okay. So you have a quote that I read somewhere, which is one of the best quotes I've ever read by any brass player. Uh, it might be my favorite ever, and that is, quote, "For my early years at the Met, my section consisted of many angry men, and my only weapon was to play better than all of them. It drove me to excellence," end quote. Okay, first of all, that's, uh, thank you for putting that out into the world, 'cause, like, when I read that, again, I didn't know you personally, I was ready to, like, run through a brick wall after I read that quote. Um, but, but can, can you talk about what it was like when you first started? Julie Landsman: It was tough. I was the first woman in the Met brass section. I had won from behind a screen anonymously, which has been documented in Malcolm Gladwell's book Blink. Lance LaDuke: That's right. Julie Landsman: The last chapter describes my Met audition, and when I walked out from behind the screen, there were only men back there- Wow ... and several of them were rather upset. Wow. They walked to the back of the room as if to say, "Who is this person that just won, and are we gonna take orders from her?" There were only two or three that came to congratulate me. Mark Gould was one of them. We knew each other. And my former teacher, Howard Howard, who was so proud, he came... They came up to congratulate me, and so did Jimmy Levine. He was on that committee as well. Andrew Hitz: Mm. Julie Landsman: But I wasn't walking into friendly turf. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Julie Landsman: And I knew that. The former principal horn had stepped down, possibly with a little bit of pressure. I don't totally know the whole story, but originally they had advertised third horn, and I said, "No, I'm not interested." But when it turned from first, to first horn from third, he had stepped down, and then I was interested in taking that audition. So it wasn't the most comforting cushion to walk in and do my best. Andrew Hitz: Wow. And isn't that, uh, it's amazing just the, the, how the story played out, which is that the first woman was a principal. I mean, that's like, talk about ripping the Band-Aid off, right? I mean, it, it wasn't even somebody that they could just talk down to. I mean, yeah, you were in charge of the horn section. I, I, I just cannot- Yeah ... I cannot imagine. Julie Landsman: And they were all men, and they were all older than me, some old enough to be my dad. Wow. It was, um, it was stressy. I d- I have not run my career as if I was a trailblazer, even though I am, and I don't mean to deny it. But if I chose to take that, um, path as a younger player, I think I would've walked around with a chip on my shoulder. Lance LaDuke: Mm. Mm. Julie Landsman: And again, I'll repeat that quote. My only defense was to play better than they had ever heard and better than any of them could possibly play. So it was an inspiration. I turned the challenge into, um, inspiration. Lance LaDuke: How long, what was the... So that was, that was your welcome. Julie Landsman: Yeah, right. Lance LaDuke: So then- Julie Landsman: Welcome to the neighborhood. Lance LaDuke: How long, like what was that first month, say week, month, season, you know, how long was it, did it ever get better? And if so, over what period of time, or did you just have to kind of wait them out or what, what was that evolution like or was there none? It took Julie Landsman: quite a bit of time to turn it around. Quite a bit of time. There was a lot of resistance that things were different and had changed, and the former principal had run the section with a tight, tight fist, and that's not my leadership style. Mm. I lead by example, and I feel that if you're setting an example of beautiful playing and humanistic qualities, it's the kind of energy I want to be surrounded by. So I did my best to bring my most conscious self and best playing to the game every day. It was a lot of pressure. Lance LaDuke: I, I've known you 12 minutes now. My impression is that you, you don't just show up. That wasn't the first day that you became a strong person. Julie Landsman: No. Lance LaDuke: And so what, what was it about, do you think it was your parents, or it was just sort of your makeup, or it was just the experience? Like, how, how is it that you, um, created this situation for yourself? Julie Landsman: There's many layers to that answer. One layer is that it wasn't so easy growing up in my household Challenges with my parents, challenges with my school as far as my interest. All I had interest in school was band. So all I wanted to do was practice my horn, which I did. I funneled all of my needs into practicing and developing a skill that I seemed to have a natural gift for. And I had a tremendous drive to survive and excel and be heard. In my household growing up, I could barely speak. I would stutter. Not lit- I didn't literally have a stutter, but I couldn't find the words. There was so much chaos in my family that I needed a voice, and I needed my own voice, and the horn was the perfect vehicle. Lance LaDuke: Was that the first instrument that you were drawn to? Julie Landsman: No, I played the piano badly, and I was a disaster at the banjo. Lance LaDuke: Oh. How would you know? Andrew Hitz: Julie, today we are joined by, by failed banjo player, Julie Landsman. Julie Landsman: Indeed. Thank you. This... And it was a five-string banjo. Oh, man. I was a disaster. And the piano, my, my parents bought us, my sister and I, piano lessons, but they would set a timer for 30 minutes of practice, and I kept going up to the kitchen to change the timer on the stove- ... as if nobody would notice that only 10 minutes had passed before the bell rang. Lance LaDuke: So when you got onto the horn, who, who was it that kind of lit that fire for you that this is the instrument for you? Oh, Julie Landsman: one person. I'll start with Joe Greco. Joe Greco was my band director in Ardsley High School, New York. Joe was a beautiful trumpet player, and we had a great high school band, and he needed French horn players, so he's the reason I picked the French horn. He told my mother French horn lessons were free, and he needed horn players, and my mother said, "Well, I like a bargain. Let's get- ... the girl a horn." So we picked a single F King from Sam Ash in White Plains- Andrew Hitz: Wow ... Julie Landsman: and, uh, the rest is history. I could not stop playing. The minute I picked it up, I could make a sound. Although I held it backwards with the bell f- pointing back- There we go ... because I really had no idea what a French horn was or how to hold it. But I had been to a band concert where I had seen baritone horn bells facing- Oh ... forward, and I thought, "Well, maybe those are French horns, and what do they do? Do they sit backwards? How do s- how do they see the conductor?" Lance LaDuke: Yeah. Julie Landsman: So that was my first blow on the instrument, but it, I took to it really quickly. Joe Greco was my teacher, and because I was good at it right away, and I was so desperate to have a voice and be recognized and excel at something, all of my energy went into the horn. And then fast-forward a year, Joe brought Carmine Caruso to work with our high school band. I get, uh, choked up when I think about it, 'cause Carmine shaped my world. Andrew Hitz: Mm. Julie Landsman: Amazing. Lucky me. Andrew Hitz: Boy, I, it's, uh, you know, you started this by talking about, about Sam and about seeing my posts about it. Isn't it, isn't it amazing how the universe just, like, brought Caruso into your band room, and that's just, like, that was obviously meant to happen, uh, especially because you have continued on with all of the teachings and... Yeah, imagine your life if that hadn't happened. Julie Landsman: It's a hard one to imagine. It was such a blessing that Carmine appeared, and basically his message was, "I like you just the way you are." He was my Mr. Rogers. Lance LaDuke: Mm-hmm. Julie Landsman: Thinking of Sam and Mr. Rogers. Yeah. I watched that, that episode. Lance LaDuke: Yeah. Julie Landsman: Um, Carmine was nothing but loving and supportive. And Howard, Howard then became my horn teacher, who... Howard was the first horn of the Met, so Joe Greco turned me on to Howard Howard and Carmine Caruso, and these two men shaped my career and changed my life. Lance LaDuke: How early, I mean it sounds like it was just this awesome, um, it's like the Avengers movies, you know, just like the right superpowers- showed up at the right time. So how soon after you picked up the horn did you become aware of what the horn could do at, at an orchestral level or as a soloist? Or how early did you hear really fine horn playing? I mean, it sounds like pretty early on. Julie Landsman: My parents, as difficult as it was being their child, they also supported me and bought records. Mm-hmm. So the first record I listened to of a horn player was, of course, Dennis Brain doing the Mozart Horn Concerto. Andrew Hitz: That's pretty good. Julie Landsman: They, ugh, it's a good start. And then the next record that my mother bought for me was Capriccio Espagnol and Capriccio Italiano. So I listened to that, and I just, I heard this horn in the orchestra. I was like, "Yeah, I want that." And then I believe the next recording was the Brahms Trio, and I believe it was also Dennis Brain. So I used to play along with the record just to get it into my cells, and it, it was so much fun Andrew Hitz: Wow Lance LaDuke: So there's a lot to unpack, especially with the, the Carmine Caruso, um, pedagogy, and I know that that's been a real, I don't know if mission's the right word or... It's been a real passion of yours to, to share that- Passion is a good Julie Landsman: word ... pedagogy Thank you, Lance Lance LaDuke: So, um, uh, and I also don't want this conversation to be about everybody but you. Can you talk about why- ... w- what it is about that, um, approach, methodology, pedagogy that is so important? And I, I feel like that was a th- the Caruso method was a thing I knew about growing up, and then I feel like it sort of subsided for a little while, and I'm, I'm, I'm really excited to see you, um, champion, championing is a word- it. And so can you sort of pick that thread up anywhere you would like and just talk about either what it is or why it's important to you or how it impacted you or how you try and pay it forward? Julie Landsman: Oh, there's many... I can unpack that question, too. Um, first of all, it's a no-nonsense approach without a lot of focus on how to. It's a matter of repetition of the exercises that teaches your body reflexively how to move, and there's nothing analytical about what your embouchure does, put your lip here, do this, that. There's none of that stuff that makes people crazy, paralysis through analysis. It doesn't exist. It didn't for me in this method. So it just gave me a tremendous foundation without the neurosis Lance LaDuke: I'm Julie Landsman: very, very grateful. The biggest piece I can just say is timing. Everything about the Caruso approach is based on precision timing of movement. Well, according to Carmine, and I've never counted, but I believed him, there's over 200 muscles that go into playing one note. I'm not sure if that's that accurate number. I'd really like to know, but his point was coordination. How do you get them all to move at the same time? The answer is precision timing, and if you watch baseball players with an upbeat and a downbeat, or golf swings, or basketball players in training, this is a training for the game. The game is how we physically, um, manifest our playing, and it gives a platform of security for your musicality. So never mistake the Caruso for anything other than a way to give you the equipment to play beautiful music. Lance LaDuke: That's a beautiful way to explain it. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Julie Landsman: Thank you. Andrew Hitz: Yeah, I was like, she has answered that question before. Yeah. Well, Julie Landsman: I believe there's been some misunderstandings out there, and perhaps, Lance, that's why you say it when it went on fade down for a little while. Perhaps. Lance LaDuke: Well, I think it's, uh, I think people want it to be harder. I think people want there to be some, like, massive explanation, and I wanna be able to buy a gizmo, and I wanna be able to, like, go study with the... But, like, at some point, you just kinda need to get your rear end into the room and put the horn on your face and figure it out, and this seems like a no-nonsense... You don't need another mouthpiece. Oh, no. You need a little more time. You know, you need to focus on the important things. Andrew Hitz: Learning by doing. Lance LaDuke: Yeah. Julie Landsman: And repetition- Lance LaDuke: Yeah ... Julie Landsman: which really changes the neuroplasticity of your brain, which is very in these days in terms of happiness, and wellbeing, and meditation. There's so much about changing the neuroplasticity of your brain. Well, with Caruso, it's like going through a, a hamster going on a treadmill or a rat going through a maze. You keep repeating it, and go back to the beginning, and you repeat. All of those, um, brain cells learn the path to it without having to fuss. It's just by repetition Lance LaDuke: It's the neurons that fire together, wire together thing, right? Julie Landsman: Yeah, exactly. So, but without analysis, you just rinse and repeat. Lance LaDuke: Mm-hmm. Andrew Hitz: Isn't it fascinating that, that we, the, the world knows a lot more about the brain and brain function than, uh, than we did when Caruso walked into your band room, and all of the additional knowledge we have only supports this type of a method more and more? It's kind of fascinating. Julie Landsman: Yeah, it's a beautiful thing, and it really gives you the opt- option to not make yourself crazy. As long as you follow the rules and have a good teacher, or I hope my videos help, but it even, even better if you have a teacher who's studied the method, and especially better if they've studied the method with someone who's worked with Carmine Lance LaDuke: As a quick aside, in the show notes will be a link to Julie's website, and on her page is, uh, a link to the YouTube channel, which has, uh, a, I think that I, my count probably 9 or 10, uh, videos at least, um, about this, so. Julie Landsman: Thank you. Yes, they're there. Although sadly, last summer they disappeared. And if anybody out there can help me figure out how YouTube videos with tens of thousands of hits disappear, I would sure like to know, 'cause I had to repost them last summer- Hmm ... and the numbers are not, aren't as impressive as they were before they went missing. So I don't know what happened. I got paranoid that s- what, somebody pulled them down. I really don't know. Andrew Hitz: Just call, call 1-800-YOUTUBE. You'll get a human right away, and they can- Oh, yeah ... yeah, they can get right to the bottom of it Julie Landsman: for you. I got so much off of YouTube, let me tell Andrew Hitz: you. Oh, boy. And actually, uh, yeah, if you click on the Caruso Method at the top, uh, you know, the top tab on her website, not only are all, I think, 12 of those videos there, but there's also, uh, a link for, uh, for sheet music and a suggested practice calendar, which is like, there's just so many resources. It's, it's really... Yeah, it's really great. And there's an awesome photo of you and, uh, and Carmine from 1972 up at the top, too, which is, uh- Julie Landsman: Thank you ... Andrew Hitz: yep. Yeah, it's, that's good stuff. So- You did your homework ... yeah, those videos are great. Say again? Julie Landsman: You did your homework. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Yeah. It's the, you know, it's the least we can do, so. We Lance LaDuke: don't always, I'll tell you that. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Julie Landsman: Well, thank you. Lance LaDuke: We, Andrew Hitz: we do- Well, we're, we're interviewing Julie bleeping Landsman. It's like I coulda, I should at least spend five minutes here. So, yeah. There you go. Um- Julie Landsman: You could've just heard about my name. Andrew Hitz: Oh, yeah. That's what, I think that's what that, yeah, that most of those people on that committee were calling you after you, after y- after you and your non-male self walked around from the screen and said, "Hello, gentlemen. Nice to meet you." So. Julie Landsman: At that point, JFL were not my initials. That came later. From teaching a student who didn't practice, I was so mad at him, I said, "Stop wasting my time. Don't you know who I am?" "I am Julie Bleep Landsman." I didn't know this at all. And un- well, unbeknownst to me, my students took on the name. And behind my back for a decade, that's what they were calling themselves. One day a student started to laugh. He said, "Well, we have a name for our quintet." Uh-oh. And I said, "What's that?" Oh. He said, "Oh, no, I can't tell you. I can't tell you." I said, "Alex, you have to tell me." It happened to have been Alex Keeley, who's the star of my Caruso videos. Andrew Hitz: Right. Julie Landsman: So he then told me what my name is, and now I love my nickname. Andrew Hitz: Right. Julie Landsman: And I also have a mouthpiece that Terry Warburton's making for me called the JFL Model. Lance LaDuke: Nice. Andrew Hitz: That's... Okay, that's really funny. That Lance LaDuke: is really good. Andrew Hitz: Um, you know what else is funny? Since we, we, we specialize in awkward segues, I was literally just about to thank Parker Mouthpieces for providing the hosting for the Brass Junkies. And Parker Mouthpieces offers fine customizable component mouthpieces for horn, trombone, euphonium and tuba, including the Andrew Hitz Artist Model tuba mouthpiece and the, uh, the LFL Model, uh, euphonium mouthpiece. Yeah. You can, you can fi- you can find out more... And I just had to think, this, this is funny. I just had to think as I was talking, "Wait, what are Lance's initials?" Then I was like, "LL, no. Or is that... No, yeah, I got it." Anyway. Find out more at parkermouthpieces.com or follow them on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. I love it that a student, uh, that, that they were calling you that for 10 years, which means it was passed on and on. Mm-hmm. Like, yeah, that's like mul- many generations of four year students. That's, that's wonderful. Julie Landsman: Yeah. I love it, too, and there's a certain persona that goes along with that name, and I have to be in a good mood to really wear that persona. If I'm at all down or, or upset, I can't live up to my nickname. So it's a good attitude that came with that last Andrew Hitz: name. So did you miss, uh, playing with the Met when you retired? Julie Landsman: I still miss it. Mm-hmm. And I retired in 2010. Andrew Hitz: Mm-hmm. Julie Landsman: It's something to miss. It doesn't get any better than the Met. Beautiful, beautiful music, wonderful colleagues, the most amazing singers in the world, the acoustics, the setting of the Met. It was my dream job since I was a young girl. Mm. So I, for many years, pinched myself walking in the stage door. For at least a decade of working there, I couldn't believe that I was filling- Wow ... the big shoes of that first horn chair. And it is something to miss. I mourn the loss, and I celebrate the brilliance of my timing when I left. 25 years was plenty on the hot seat. I left when I could still be proud of my playing, and before people wanted me to leave. I had seen too many colleagues overstay their welcome, leave with their reputations tarnished, and their colleagues kicking them out the door. Mm. And I refused to do that to myself. But I put too much into it to have any smear on my reputation. So I picked exactly the right time to get out. Do I miss it? Every day. Lance LaDuke: How long before 2010 had you made the decision? Like, when, how far in advance of the decision did you make the decision? Well, Julie Landsman: when I turned 50, I took a year leave of absence from the Met, and I had been there 18 years. So let's see, I was born in '53, I guess that was 2003 I turned 50. How's my math? Good? I Lance LaDuke: think it's pretty close, yeah. Julie Landsman: And when I took that year off, I really would've been okay if I didn't go back, 'cause the 18 years were intense. I had done many Ring cycles, including recording it. I'd played so many operas and been on the hot seat for so long, that I, I could have not gone back if it weren't for the fact that the Met has a retirement rule called the Rule of 80, and there's a beautiful pension waiting at the end of the rainbow, and I had seven more years before I hit that Rule of 80. So I let my pension dictate my retirement, and the minute I hit the Rule of 80, I was out Andrew Hitz: Hmm. Wow. Julie Landsman: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Uh, speaking of the, uh, of the Ring Cycle, uh, one of your former star students, and you've got a bunch of them, but, uh, Jeffrey Pilkington, who, uh, has been a dear friend of mine for a very long time. Um, but I saw, um, the, uh, the National Opera, they did the Ring Cycle, I guess this was a couple of years ago now. Julie Landsman: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: Um, I saw the dress rehearsal of, uh, of Siegfried and, um, and he was just stunning. I mean, it was like... And I found out afterwards that that day that he, I think he slept on his shoulder wrong to the point where he almost didn't do the, the, that run because he was in so much pain, and he just like the, I mean, the long call, everything was just absolutely exquisite, world-class, like it can't be done any better. What is it like to have students who have gone on to achieve things like Jennifer Montone, like Jeff Pilkington, like others? What's that like as the teacher to witness? Julie Landsman: There's many parts of what you just said I want to respond to, but just to work backwards, to sit and live in my legacy, there are no words, honestly. Andrew Hitz: Hmm. Julie Landsman: I get to go play with Jen and the Philly Orchestra, oh my God. Andrew Hitz: Yeah, she's- Julie Landsman: I actually played some of that Ring Cycle backstage, which you did not know- No, I didn't ... in the Washington National Opera. There Andrew Hitz: you go. And Julie Landsman: Jeff invited me to play. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Julie Landsman: Even more horrifying was the day that he, of that dress rehearsal that you're talking about- Andrew Hitz: Uh-huh Julie Landsman: my phone rang. Andrew Hitz: Oh. Julie Landsman: And it was the former personnel manager. At the time it was Aaron Doty, and he said, "What are you doing tomorrow?" "Jeff Pilkington is injured. We have a..." Actually, it was tonight. "Can you get on a train this morning and come out and play Siegfried for us? Jeff hurt himself." You don't understand. That wouldn't be a good idea. How many years after my retirement? I'm not gonna walk in and play the first horn on Siegfried, I don't think so. Thank you for asking, but no thanks. So Jeff actually got himself to a chiropractor that day- Andrew Hitz: Mm-hmm ... Julie Landsman: and took a bucket load of Advil. And he is just so talented and such a strong personality. Andrew Hitz: Yes. Julie Landsman: And he made himself do it, and he rocked. Andrew Hitz: Yes, he did. I had no idea until, you know, he obviously had a crazy day. He wasn't texting me that day to, to keep me in the loop, and I found out after the fact that he had been going through that, and you wouldn't have known it by the Julie Landsman: playing. But I want to come back to this question, but could you hit pause one more time? Andrew Hitz: Yes. Julie Landsman: Thank you. Andrew Hitz: Go for it Julie Landsman: The Question about what's it like to play with my stars, Jeff Pilkington, Kevin Rivard, principal horn of the San Francisco Opera and Ballet. Mm-hmm. We got to play together with the Chamber Music Society a few years ago. A- I always take second seat to them. I do not pull rank at this point. I'm just honored to, to sit in their bell- Mm ... and hear how beautiful they play, beautifully they play. And Nathaniel Silberschlag's my most recent success story. He's the new principal horn- Yeah ... of the Cleveland Orchestra. Andrew Hitz: Yes. Julie Landsman: He's been my student since he was 12. We did some Skype lessons way back when. Andrew Hitz: Really? Julie Landsman: And then I spent a few months living in your town. You're in DC area, right? Andrew Hitz: Yes. Julie Landsman: I played first horn in the National Opera for a while because Jeff was having his first baby- Andrew Hitz: Mm-hmm ... Julie Landsman: and it was Tristan, and the conductor knew me from the Met, Philippe Auguin. Lance LaDuke: Mm-hmm. Julie Landsman: So I, I lived in DC on and off for a few months- Mm and I got to work with Nathaniel Silberschlag in person when he was- Great ... 14. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Julie Landsman: We, we... Then he came to Juilliard, and, um, the rest is history in the making. Andrew Hitz: It's awesome. Julie Landsman: It's, it's beyond. I also played in a horn section at the Met with four of my students. But since I got in, there were more auditions in the horn section, and some of those angry men left- Lance LaDuke: Right Julie Landsman: and they were replaced by wonderful young women, who were my students, who won the audition behind a screen, like I did, anonymously. Lance LaDuke: Mm. Julie Landsman: So what went from a rather, um, uncomfortable situation became so supportive and so sweet when I was surrounded by my students, my loving, loving students. Andrew Hitz: Wow, that's incredible. Julie Landsman: Yeah. Andrew Hitz: That's something I haven't really thought about as a, as a tuba player. You know, I, I didn't, uh, I never got to play professionally with Sam. You know, I mean, it's like it, you know, an orchestra there's a tuba. I mean, there are exceptions for pieces, but in a quintet there's a tuba, but horn, of course, there's sections. So it's like it- you actually have much more opportunities to actually perform with former students, and the number that you've gotten to perform with, what a, what a gift. Julie Landsman: And to this day I still perform with them at various work that I've, I still take. And I, I don't do that much professional playing anymore, but when I do, it's always preferable for me to have my students with me. For example, at the Music Academy of the West in the summer, which unfortunately this summer is gonna be online, but for the past seven summers, every summer I play with my students. What a privilege. There's an orchestra in New Jersey, the Montclair Orchestra, where I get to hire my students to play with me. And my very favorite local student is Michelle Baker. She was my second horn at the Met for 18 years. Any chance we get to play together, we do. And also Julia Pilant, who's in the Met Orchestra, any chance she and I get to play together, whether it's a recital at Bard, or whether we practice and warm up together, which is just a thrill, or whether it's Eric Reed, who was a graduate student of mine at Juilliard, I play, play with Eric in Orpheus. Yeah, he's amazing. So many of my former students and I have the privilege of sitting together and working together. It's absolutely the best. Andrew Hitz: Mm. Lance LaDuke: What, I, I really want to encourage everyone to check out Julie's page, because it, there's a list of your former students, and I don't know how up-to-date that is, but the, it's a who's who. It's like, it's mind-boggling when you look at the, the list of students and what they're doing now. It's just, Julie Landsman: uh- Thank you ... stunning, yeah Thank you so much for mentioning that. I was very select with who I put on that list. So if somebody just had a few coachings with me, they're not there. But the students who I trained at Juilliard and had several years at least to work with, they're on my, um, hit list. Lance LaDuke: Did you, when did you start teaching? Does that, was that something that you f- you started right away, uh, when you started working with the Met? Or did you, uh, what was the evolution there? Julie Landsman: Well, before I got into the Met, I was in the Houston Symphony for three years. And while I was in the Houston Symphony, I taught at the University of Houston, where I was Michelle Baker's teacher, and she's phenomenal, not only as a player, but as a teacher, and as a colleague, and a friend. I just adore her. And we met when she was a college kid in Houston. I also taught at Rice University at the Shepherd School when I was in the Houston Symphony, and that was '82 to '85. So I guess that would be the official beginning of my teaching career. I then went to the Met in '85, '86 season, and I started at Juilliard in '89. Lance LaDuke: Gotcha. And so I, I'm, I'm at the point now where I have a, just a micro co- I mean, a, a, a fraction of the students that, that are out doing things, and, uh, but the feeling that I have in seeing them succeed is, uh, it's, it's hard to describe. It's like, it's mind-boggling in a, in a, in a different way than, than my performing career. To see them go off and do incredible things hits me at a much deeper, more emotional level. It feels ... The playing things I'm sort of proud of. I'm ... I don't mean sort of. I'm proud of the things that I've done, but the, the ... I feel almost selfish, like, thinking about that stuff, but then to see them run fast and far is, uh, a, a, a different kind of thing. And so I, I'm just imagining how deep that must be for you because you've had so many successes, uh, and continue to have. Um, does it hit you that same sort of way? Julie Landsman: Well, I'm so glad you understand. I can see in your eyes that you really have the depth of feeling in your heart that when you nurture and raise a student, and it's almost like having a kid- Right but these are my kids, 'cause I don't have any of my own. So I have tons of kids around the world who I've nurtured and continue to. With many of them, it's an ongoing relationship. There are no words. As I see it in your eyes, there are no words. It is so deep to know that you've changed somebody's life for the better, and to watch them flourish in what you helped them create for themselves. It, it blows my mind, and it makes my eyes tear. Lance LaDuke: Yeah, me too. Me too. Andrew Hitz: Hm. Lance LaDuke: Well, speaking of tearing up, I want to talk about Jim Nova at Duquesne University. Andrew Hitz: Julie, our- So- ... our brand is awkward segues. So that's like we, we actually lean in on the awkward segues. Lance LaDuke: So Mary Pappert School of Music at Duquesne University is a sponsor of the Brass Junkies, and we thank them for being so. They have done this for ... They were our, one of our first sponsors and one of our longest sponsors. And so if you want to find out more about what's going on at the Mary Pappert School, you can click on the link in the show notes, and very, very special thanks to Jim I have nothing more to add. Nova- ... for making that possible. Sorry about the awkward segue. Both. Both. We went from this really emotional, touching kind of moment- ... to mayhem, but, uh- Andrew Hitz: It's all part of Lance LaDuke: it. Yeah. Andrew Hitz: This was, this was... Yeah, I was like, "Wait a minute, this is way too useful." Like we need- Yeah ... to go back to our brand of jackassery or people are gonna get confused. Julie Landsman: Well, I think Lance just hit overload and he needed to change Lance LaDuke: the channel. I did. Yeah. You know what I mean? Release valve. But this- Yeah. Well, we just had this, uh, we had... There was a... I was very honored. Roger Bobo, um, uh, um, ignited this project, and we... There's about, uh, over 100, I think, euphonium and tuba players from all over the planet did this arrangement that Scott Sutherland did of Nimrod. And, um, so we- Wow ... each recorded our part and sent it in. And, um, I When the video came out, uh, you know, there's like, there's, it's overwhelming with all of how many players there are. And for sure, I, I noticed when I was on the screen, 'cause it kind of moved around, but I caught, uh, like, oh, there's one of my students, and there's one. And so there were, like, four students on there, and I just thought, "This is the coolest thing." And I mean, I was honored to be a part of it, but to see them do this thing... I- it, it's remembering, you know, you, you, you said you had Skype lessons with, uh, with, um, which student? I've forgotten now. Julie Landsman: With Nathaniel Silberschlag. Lance LaDuke: Sil- with Na- uh, 12. Yeah. And so I remember all these students the first time I met them, you know, in the first few lessons, and that, just to see that growth. And it, it's like you said, I, I have kids, and it, it, it's, it's, it is similar to that. It is this kind of you, you remember the entirety of the experience with them. And so then to see where they are after living through all of the struggles that you know that they had and all of the challenges and setbacks and s- and, and successes, it's just, uh, it's the best. It's the best. It's so much fun. Julie Landsman: There's another piece to that that I wanna add, and that is as a teacher, you give, but you don't expect back. Lance LaDuke: Right. Julie Landsman: It's our job to give. The only way I feel I can expect to get back is to s- help them grow, feel their appreciation, and continue to support them. That gives me a lot. But it turns out when I hit some hard times in my life, these students had my back. Lance LaDuke: Mm. Julie Landsman: And I never expected it. Lance LaDuke: Mm. Julie Landsman: And it just brought me to my knees, because they were there. They literally helped me up for a couple of years- Lance LaDuke: Wow ... Julie Landsman: going through some personal hard times, and ugh, forever grateful, and also was so surprised to get back when that's not the deal as a teacher. Mm-hmm. You don't go into it thinking, "Ah, they're gonna give it all back to me." No, not at all. Yeah. You give because it's the way you show your skillset and your love and your support. That's the job. Lance LaDuke: Amen. Andrew Hitz: Mm. Boy, when you, when I hear your students talk about you and what you've meant to their careers, uh, it's... You can hear, like, the, uh, you can hear the gratitude in their, in their voices when they say it, and then you, it, when I hear not just the list of all the successes, obviously you are quite a good teacher, like just the teaching part of it, because you don't just get lucky to get all of those students that come through your door. Even when you teach at a place like Juilliard, it doesn't work that way. Uh, but al- it's even just your approach to teaching and the role of the teacher and, and all of that. I mean, it's j- it's not surprising that they are so loyal to you because you obviously are just, are, are... Doesn't sound like you could possibly be any more committed to their success as players or as people than you are, which tends to get some loyalty in return. So, yeah. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. Yeah. Um, I wanted to, uh, to ask you about one more quote from, uh, that I found of yours, uh, and then we're gonna ask you for, um, I always like talking to super woke people like, uh, like Julie here, because I think maybe she might be the one that can crack through for Jens with his chop problems, but, but, well, no pressure. Oh. But we'll, we'll see. So, uh, but before we go there, um, uh, this quote, uh, I loved. You said, "I highly encourage people to set their dreams and their goals, and to take care of all parts of your being, not just as a player, but as a human being." And we've been kinda talking about that for the entire time so far, but can, can you talk about the importance of... And, and especially right now as we're all trapped in our houses, uh, you know, and all dealing with, uh, some more than others, but we're all dealing with so much right now, just talking about the importance of taking care of yourself as a human being as a part of the artistic journey? Julie Landsman: I can answer all of those questions and wrap it into one. Andrew Hitz: Great. Julie Landsman: I mentioned growing up was a little difficult for me in my household. It required a lot of help, and I was smart enough to know I needed help. Mm. So at a very young age, I asked my parents to get me therapy. I knew I needed help. Their, their response was, "Oh, no, no, no, no. You're fine. You couldn't sit down and play your horn." I said, "No, I'm really, I really do need this help." Andrew Hitz: So starting- Wait, what? I'm sorry to interrupt, but what age were you when you requested therapy? Julie Landsman: 14. Andrew Hitz: That is remarkable. Julie Landsman: I just knew. Believe me. Wow. I was acting out. I was definitely- That's- ... you know, cruising for a bruising Andrew Hitz: But generally speaking, 14-year-olds who are acting out are not also equipped with the self-awareness to be the one that ins- you know, like, that instigates the... Uh, that's remarkable. Anyway, I'm sorry. I just had to get that number- Thank you ... 'cause I had a feeling it was gonna be something that blew my mind, and it was. Julie Landsman: Well, that's... It started at a young age, where I knew that I needed extra help. I have no shame about asking for help. I ask for help when I need it. I offer help when it's needed from me. Lance LaDuke: Mm. Julie Landsman: So I've done a lot of self e- exploration, whether it be through yoga or meditation or manifesting dr- manifestation of my dreams. So when I was 12 and started the horn, eventually I became the student of Howard Howard, the first horn of the Met. I think I was 13. At that point, I decided I wanted what my teacher had. I wanted to be the first horn of the Met. That's when I was 13 years old. It took me until I was, I guess, 32 to realize my dream, but my whole trajectory from age 13 on was about becoming first horn of the Met. So I'm very much a believer in having your dreams and moving forward and doing everything possible to make them come true. Right now, during this pandemic- Or as crazy and as difficult as it is, I'm not the type to go, "Woe is me." I will not, I will not do that. I might have a down day here and there, and I do. This is not easy. But I try to maintain optimistic and have hopes and dreams. And one of my hopes and dreams for the last decade was to segue my teaching and my life to the West Coast. So here's the big news flash. Lance LaDuke: Ooh. All right. Julie Landsman: I've been hired by USC. Lance LaDuke: No kidding. Whoa. Julie Landsman: And I've got two more years at Juilliard, where I'll be finishing my s- my teaching. I'm very sad to leave my alma mater. I love it there so, so much. But I've had a dream to go to the West Coast. My entire family is in Los Angeles. I own a home in Santa Barbara, where I work in the summers. It's paradise. Andrew Hitz: Yeah. Julie Landsman: And I've just been waiting. Will Colburn open up? No, Andrew Bain is firmly ensconced there. Will USC open up? Well, in January, my friend and colleague, Kristy Morrell, posted on Facebook I'm taking a job at Baylor University. And I was like writing to her in Messenger, "What?" Is there gonna be any sort of jo- job search? 'Cause put me on that list. Andrew Hitz: There's not gonna be a job search if you're interested, guys. Julie Landsman: Well said. So it took until this pandemic for the, um, job to be posted, and for me to apply for it, and to get a Zoom interview. It was a... The Zoom interview was a month ago. And it Andrew Hitz: was- Did you just say... I'm sorry. Did you just say, "I'm Julie bleeping Landsman," and then just hit, and then hang up? That's it. Just four- Well- ... four words. Julie Landsman: It was a funny interview- ... because as I mentioned, I like talking about myself. Well, I really learned it in that interview, 'cause if there ever was a time to sell yourself, it's on a Zoom interview for a college position you've been waiting 10 years for. Andrew Hitz: Right. Julie Landsman: So although I blushed quite a bit, I was definitely blowing my own horn in a big way. And it took about two weeks after that for them to go through all the red tape and all the difficulties of universities, uh, during this pandemic before they came back to me and offered me the job. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Julie Landsman: So I am in the process right now of transitioning. Wow. I will be, for the next two years, living in New York, teaching at Juilliard, but also going to USC three times a semester. And after the two years of this arrangement, I'll leave New York, I'll leave Juilliard. And let me tell you, just saying it makes my throat catch. Right. I'm a New Yorker. Right. I was born and raised here. This is my town. Lance LaDuke: Right. Julie Landsman: But I feel like- Jump off that cliff. Take a chance. Follow a dream. It has always served me well, and I'm hoping for the best. Andrew Hitz: Wow. Love it. There you, there you go. It Julie Landsman: is. Well, Andrew Hitz: speaking of, uh, of southern California, you're, you're gonna be right down the street- And taking a Lance LaDuke: chance ... Andrew Hitz: from... And taking a chance. You're gonna be right down the street from a certain Jens Lindemann. And, uh- Oh ... yeah, as you, as you know, uh, I bet a, a name like, uh, yeah, a name like Julie is gonna bring a lot of people who have probably never heard the podcast before. So, um, but so, yeah, we make fun of our friend Jens every single episode because, um, while Lance is good at the euphonium and I'm on some days good at the tuba, we are not nearly as good as we are at driving a joke into the ground. So, uh, right? Yeah, that's just, that's just, that's a little... a brief glimpse of self-awareness. But, uh, we, uh, as, as you I'm sure know, Julie, that, uh, that Jens has been dealing with chop problems, uh, forever. And, um, we've asked 100 consecutive guests, uh, what, uh, what their advice would be for, um, for Jens in this desperate time for him. And you have this whole, like, this holistic, like, like, Caruso method that you learned from. What was it? Oh, yeah, Caruso. And, like, you're just, and you're, you're woke, and I mean that in a non-sarcastic way. You're like... You're the perfect person to help him to get through this. So future southern California neighbor, Julie Landsman, what is your advice for Jens Lindemann? Julie Landsman: Well, thank you so much for asking. I'm flattered- ... that you think I can help the great Jens Lindemann, who is the teacher at UCLA for trumpet, if I'm not mistaken. Andrew Hitz: That, that is him. Julie Landsman: Well, I do have some advice for you, Jens. Do you remember that beautiful woman you dated when we first met? Her name is Anne Scherer. Anne Scherer, your girlfriend and my student at Juilliard, knows the Caruso method. Ah. So I just want to suggest, if you're in deep trouble, that you give Annie a call, and she will teach you what you need to know to fix those poor chops of yours. With all my empathy. Having chop problems sucks. Andrew Hitz: He needs to call his ex-girlfriend. I love it. So we ask, you know, we, we have to explain to everybody, "Do you know Jens Lindemann?" And I love our favorite thing is when I say, "Do you know Jens Lindemann?" And the person says, "No," and then Lance says, "Perfect." So because then we're like, "You're about to make fun of this guy who you don't m- know." And then, and Julie, she got a little twinkle and she's like, "Oh, yes, he used to date one of my students." Yeah, a long time ago. So I was like ... And then Lance said, "Perfect." Yeah, so Julie Landsman: anyway. Well, Andrew, I remember the moment of meeting him. Andrew Hitz: Oh, uh-oh. Julie Landsman: He walked Annie to my studio at Juilliard for her lesson, and I open the door and there they are, and she introduced me to her boyfriend. I was like, "You're cute." Andrew Hitz: Ah. Oh, boy. There you go, the Canadian national treasure. Yep, charming even, even the great Julie Landsman. There you go. Well, uh, and the best part about the, uh, about the Jens, uh, the ongoing Jens joke, uh, which I think you'll appreciate this, Julie, is that, um, that his, his wife, Jennifer Snow, who's one of the most, uh, amazing pianists in the world, um, that she will listen to the, The Brass Junkies and will occasionally walk up to him for a particularly good Jens advice and will literally put her phone on speaker and just hit play and hold the phone up to him and make him listen to, uh, to the advice, which is, which we find hilarious, so- Julie Landsman: Perfect. Well- Yeah ... no offense to his beautiful current wife- Andrew Hitz: Oh, no, no, no ... she forgot his Julie Landsman: ex, Annie. I hope that's okay. Andrew Hitz: Oh, I... Oh, it'll be, it'll, it'll be fine, I'm sure. So, and I think Jennifer would be the first to admit she's not helping him, so, you know, I mean, if an- I mean, nobody is. We're, we're all trying, so, um, all right. Well, this has been amazing. Uh, we are going to, uh, to have, uh, Julie and Julie's dog, um, stick around for the, uh, the bonus episode here, which is gonna be just a continuation of this. She said that she would get juicy with her stories for the bonus episode. That is available for our Patreon patrons, and, uh, we've got bonus episodes with, uh, with Jim Pandolfi, with, with Sam Pilafian, and with, um, yeah, there's... I'm, I'll tell you a story, Julie, to start the bonus episode about Jim Pandolfi, which is going to make you laugh, I guarantee it. And, uh, yeah, we've got just tons and tons and tons of bonus episodes with, uh- Gould ... with each guest, and yep, with Gould, and, uh, yeah, it goes on and on. So Julie, this has been wonderful. I thank you so much for joining us. This is really, it's been... We tell every guest that it's been a pleasure, and we usually mean it, but for you, it's like, this has been awesome. I feel rejuvenated, so thank you. Julie Landsman: Thank you so much for asking on one day's notice. Yeah. I think we did a good job. Andrew Hitz: I think we did, too. And that's gonna do it for another episode of The Brass Junkies. You've been listening to The Brass Junkies on the Pedal Note Media Podcast Network. If you would like to hear the bonus episode featuring today's guest, please visit patreon.com/thebrassjunkies to learn how you can support the show and instantly access all bonus materials as well as gain access to a special patron-only Facebook group. The Brass Junkies is produced by the amazing, wonderful, and truly inspirational Will Houchin. The theme music was composed by Fernando Deddos and performed by Andrew Hitz and Lance LaDuke. We are @PrayForJens on Twitter and Instagram and have a Facebook page at facebook.com/prayforjens. You can find out more about The Brass Junkies and all the other Pedal Note Media podcasts at pedalnotemedia.com. This has been a presentation of the Pedal Note Media Podcast Network.